Jonathan Rogers and the Concept of Four Life Themes

Jonathan Rogers was hired to develop John Voris' website, but in the process, he found that he deeply resonated with John's work. 

On today's episode, Jonathan and John share with podcast co-host Kim Eley the insights they explored working together, including the concept of four in relation to the four Life Themes, the importance of language, and the validation for Authentic Systems in philosophy and religious texts. 

Jonathan also shares his personal experiences with the assessment, explaining how it allowed him to understand himself and his motivations on a deeper level, as well as explore new perspectives—and how it can change your perspective on all aspects of life, too.

For more information go to johnvoris.com

Are you Love, Justice, Wisdom or Power?
Click Here to Take the questionnaire to Discover Your Life Theme

Work 1-on-1 with John Voris
Learn about the ultimate journey of self discovery with the ALTA Assessment

Purchase John's book on The Four Life Themes
Discover the Power That Drives Your Personality

Transcript

Kim Eley (00:28):

Hello, welcome back to another episode of Authentic Living Podcast. And we are super excited. Your co-host of course, are myself Kim Eley and also John Voris.

John Voris (00:44):

Hello.

Kim Eley (00:45):

Hello. And we are delighted today, John, to have a special guest speaker with us, a gentleman named Jonathan Rogers. And apparently you two have worked together since about 2008. And so Jonathan has been at the beginning the origins of Authentic Systems. 

And because y'all have known each other for a while, you've also watched Jonathan, how Authentic Systems has impacted others. So let's kick off this discussion. Super excited. 

So tell me, how did you two meet?

Jonathan Rogers (01:24):

We were at a business gathering here in Monterey, where it's supposed to be mutual benefit. You know, “you scratch my back, I scratch yours” type thing. He discovered that I was a graphic designer and web designer, so he wanted to revamp his website. 

And typically I have to know my clients pretty well and know what they're all about in order to represent them accurately online. So I had to dive into what he, his offering was. And of course it was right within my wheelhouse. I've been a lover of psychology since, well, time in memorial, whatever. 

And he taught me a lot about philosophy, and I didn't realize that I would be a lover of philosophy, and it's absolutely vital, I think, to everybody's life. So, oh, that was the beginnings of that, and I kind of never left, you know.

Kim Eley (02:09):

Fantastic. John, how did you first start presenting authentic Systems to Jonathan? I assume it was because y'all were working together on your website.

John Voris (02:19):

Well, yeah. So as we were revamping the website, of course there's material that had to be placed in the website to bring it up to date. So in that, I was teaching him as we went along, and then he would absorb so much and then we'd go to the next stage and next stage and next stage. But what was very good is that she, he was willing and happy to learn, and that helped me. And so together you have a very accurate portrait by what Authentic Systems is about.

Kim Eley (02:46):

Awesome. So let's dive into that because we want people who, maybe new listeners to learn more about Authentic Systems. So Jonathan, you were sharing with me before a little bit about—I'm going to call, call it the origin story of Authentic Systems. So tell us a little bit about that.

Jonathan Rogers (03:03):

Well, John can go into the very early stages of that where he was a cold call salesman and quite effective using his newfound system that he learned from philosophy. But when I came along, I was noticing all these, what he called authentic identities that he had previously identified throughout the years of interviewing people. And I kind of saw a pattern, and I was kind of obsessed with the symbolic creatures that were showing up. 

I, I have a fundamentalist up bringing with then Christianity. And so <laugh>, I noticed that these authentic identities that he discovered lined up in my mind authentically with these things called the Four Living Creatures that appeared in Ezekiel and in Revelation. So both in the Hebrew scriptures and the Christian Greek. 

And so I asked just to ask them a simple question, and I said, “do you think these would all fit under four categories?” And he goes, “well, what are those?” And I said, “well, love, justice, wisdom and power.” He goes, “huh, let me think about that for a while”. I think it was like a week or two later, he comes back, he goes, “where'd you get that from?”

Kim Eley (04:13):

<Laugh>,

Jonathan Rogers (04:14):

You know? And I said, “oh, it just so happened that it came, came from the Bible.” I was like, very fascinated, because they all do, they all fit perfectly under those four categories. 

And so later on we needed a name for it that would be palatable to the public, and in a kind of brainstormed it, and they're like, well, it kind of dictates how you view life. Why not call it a theme or a life theme? And so that's how we got the Four Life themes.

Kim Eley (04:40):

Oh, outstanding. And John, when Jonathan first approached you with that and you went away thinking, what was your thought process? What, what did you meditate upon <laugh>?

John Voris (04:50):

Well, what I had to do was find other validating sources. And so discovered in archeology, their archeologists had discovered that in shamanism, they also describe a human nature in four categories. They use the mother, teacher, visionary, and warrior. And that corresponds perfectly with love, justice, wisdom, power. 

And then I started looking at the philosophers of the past, and they'll be a lot of information or let's say subject and epistemology, dealing with politics and power, dealing with what knowledge is dealing with morality, which is the justice quadrant. And of course, they get involved in a self-identity, self-awareness, which is the love quadrant. So it seems that no matter where you go in history, you always have these four topics come up even in science, which is very important to me, so that I could have validation across the board. And I did. That's the point.

Kim Eley (05:56):

Excellent. So I'm curious to know, Jonathan, you've shared with John your insights about, you know—this comes from Ezekiel and from Revelations and John, you went and did some research to find other sources, you know, to back this up in including sounds like philosophy and science. Is that correct? 

Jonathan Rogers:

Yes. 

Kim Eley:

Okay, gotcha. So tell us, because now you know, you've got this amazing assessment that you give to people. What was the evolution? Did y'all collaborate on the assessment? How did that come about?

John Voris (06:30):

Who were you asking?

Kim Eley (06:31):

Oh, both of y'all. I'm sorry.

John Voris (06:33):

<Laugh>.

Jonathan Rogers (06:34):

You can, you can start, John.

John Voris (06:37):

So, okay, so on the assessment, what I did, well, I used the assessment in a way since 1980…

Kim Eley (06:44):

Mm-Hmm.

John Voris (06:44):

Okay. Before I met Jonathan, so—

Kim Eley (06:47):

Oh, okay. Gotcha.

John Voris (06:48):

—but it was piecemeal and it had a very specific function. And so I didn't formally start engaging in this model in the sense of classes and books and lectures until around meeting Jonathan.

Kim Eley (07:04):

Gotcha.

John Voris (07:05):

Oh, what Jonathan was able to do is give structure to what I had been doing on a very random level and holistically excellent. And so, and also I wanted to make it consumer friendly. And what I, what I did is I engaged in existentialism, phenomenology and lots of topics. Nobody wants to hear about <laugh>, so I need an interpreter in a sense. And that's where Jonathan came in and did a wonderful job.

Kim Eley (07:33):

Oh, fantastic. So Jonathan, it sounds like we kind of know what you brought to the table, but how did you help with providing this structure and kind of synthesizing what John had that was kind of piecemeal?

Jonathan Rogers (07:46):

Yeah. Well, so my expression on what we call the synthetic side, my power quadrant, you, if you will, that brings about change that manifests into the world to display is called design by order. So I'm going to take everything John thinks very holistically. 

It's all encompassing, whereas I tend to think very technologically and systematically through process and method, that type of thing. So I tend to put things in a linear fashion first, a, then B, then C, then D. And I'll also place things in a hierarchy. “Does this come first? Does cut second? How does it cascade down?” And so perfect match because he could bring the whole big picture in. I could learn the big picture and then start applying a structure to it to help other people more like me understand it. So yeah, that's where that expression comes in.

Kim Eley (08:40):

Oh, outstanding. So let me ask this, because John, I already know that you are a wisdom life theme, Jonathan, are you also a wisdom life theme?

Jonathan Rogers (08:50):

I'm a justice life theme. So my authentic motivator specifically is harmonic balance. So I'm always looking to bring harmony and balance to everything. In fact, I seek it out. I'm always on the alert looking for it. “Where is it? There it is. Go after it. Bring this thing back into balance.” 

Right now it's interesting because it provides stability and it's necessary at times to, because you know, a structure cannot be supported on error <laugh>. It has to have some solidity. So now there's also a shadow side to that, or a challenging side to that. When everything's in balance, it doesn't move. 

Jonathan Rogers (09:32):

You're in the moment, you're in the now, there is no motion going anywhere. And so you cannot in life have perfect balance. That's why it's always a perpetual need. It will always, imbalance will always exist. Therefore, someone like me needs to come in and bring things into balance. And then when I turn my back, it'll go back into imbalance again. Then I have to go back after it, bring it back in, you know? So it's this perpetual need. 

Now on that authentic side of my motivator, being harmonic balance, there's a wisdom quadrant, and I happen to be technical knowledge. So that's my specific facilitator of harmony and balance comes through what I know and appreciate about technology. And so I guess that's the best description using the system itself to describe what I'm up to.

Kim Eley (10:21):

Oh, absolutely. I love that. And I'd love to delve a little bit more because y'all had mentioned the synthetic and the fact that you balance one another out in that, John, you have the holistic picture, and Jonathan, you like to structure that. 

So if you could talk a little bit about what you've discovered working together, that that helps you have that balance, I think that would give people maybe a little bit more insight about, you know, how we come with different strengths to the table. It can work together.

Jonathan Rogers (10:50):

John, you can go first one. That one.

John Voris (10:52):

Okay. So the idea is to give Jonathan an overview of what I'm up to. And it doesn't have boundaries, they're just fluid ideas. So the other is I'm using usually language that is very much foreign to most listeners. And so what we need to do is language, what I'm speaking into, language that people can really understand. That's where Jonathan really comes in. But he has to understand both ends. That's very important. He has to understand my end, which he does. And, but he also knows how to break that down inductively into a language that is consumable, you might say. 

So that works out very, very well. And then that's why we've been together since ‘08. So this is what my mission has been, is to bring it to the public. And I needed someone like Jonathan to do that.

Kim Eley (11:44):

Fantastic. I love that.

Jonathan Rogers (11:47):

Yeah, it's well said. I don't know if I can add anything to that.

Kim Eley (11:49):

Oh, okay. <Laugh>, that was well said. Thank you, you, John. Fantastic. 

So during the time that y'all have known each other and worked together, and John initially what your information was piecemeal, and then eventually you put it into an assessment and you were able to, you know, talk to other people, do assessments with them, determine what life theme they are. I wanted to know how you maybe shared that with Jonathan, and then how Jonathan, you were able to use that using your systematic structural approach to maybe write down a record how it impacted others. 

Jonathan Rogers (12:30):

The impact on others. Okay. And take another crack at it. Yeah.

John Voris (12:33):

Okay. First of all, I had, I had to put him through the assessment itself. And then from the assessment, then we can expand. And that's what we've been doing since 2008.

Kim Eley (12:43):

Excellent, excellent. And it, not to state the obvious, but that's where you learned that Jonathan's life theme is, is justice, but even further, even deeper into that, learning about the synthetic and the branch offs to the initial tree of the life theme is you get deeper and deeper. You learn more and more details.

John Voris (13:05):

Sure. And I, I think we should say first time listeners to break this down that we all have these four characteristics, which is we care, we have compassion, we are curious, that's the wisdom side. Also, we engage in relationships and we relate to polarities, you might say, and we're in action. And that's the power. And so these are the four quadrants. 

We consist of all four, but one dominates. So this gives you the overview of our discussion. And the synthetic side is the physical side, the abstract side, or I should say the authentic side is the abstract side, to keep them separate because they, they have different functions.

Kim Eley (13:50):

Excellent. As you both have worked together, I'm curious to know, Jonathan, what you have observed. Let me ask you this first. Once you first learned about authentic systems, were you then able to start using it and identify and say, “aha, I think that person is a power life theme.” How did, how did that start?

Jonathan Rogers (14:12):

Oh yeah, absolutely. In the theme aspect itself, very easy to come across people and identify them immediately and right away. And one of the most fascinating things is you start to realize that throughout your life, who you have attracted or who you identify with. So the majority of the people that have been around me have always been justice or wisdom people, and a smattering of some love people, but very few power people, right? 

And it's not that I'm opposed to power people. They serve a definite function. And I, I should add that it's kind of like a, a lens through which you see the, so for instance, in my case, justice allow shades, everything. It colors everything. It's almost like my own pair of rose colored glasses. I see everything and interpret everything through the eyes of justice. So who should I love? I should love somebody that's a little bit justicey <laugh>. I'm making up words. Who, what kind of wisdom should I take in? Well, that correlates to justice, you know, how about love? Who deserves my love? Deserves. That's a justice kind of term. You know you have to weigh the, the pros and the cons and look at who, who deserves that. And then of course, most justice people, because the energy is very masculine and directive,

Jonathan Rogers (15:33):

find themselves a bit at odds with typical power people because that energy is masculine and directive. So there's a tendency for justice people to avoid power. And they're the ones that probably came up with the term or the quote, power corrupts an absolute power, corrupts absolutely <laugh>, which is not true. Right? It's not a truism. It can, and what most justice people need to realize is that they are the best suited, in my opinion, to take on the role of power because they're going to be so conscientious and so sensitive and they can even break their heart. If someone came to [say], “you know what? You abused your power,” like, they'd be devastated with that knowledge because it's so opposed to what they're up to. 

And so power people are definitely the change agents of the world. They're the ones that like, come on, let's just hurry up and affect change. You know, let's get out there and make things happen and move it. It's the action quadrant. So there's a little example there for you from the perspective of a justice person.

Kim Eley (16:38):

Absolutely.

Jonathan Rogers (16:39):

And John can give you the perspective of the lens of wisdom. Like, who he chooses to love is based in wisdom. What he finds fair and just, it comes from the perspective of wisdom and so on and so forth. 

Kim Eley (16:50):

Fantastic. I'm going to jump in here real quick because we're heading towards a break. I did want to say, and real quick, I think we should pick back up on that, but I, the justice life theme, and tell me if I'm saying it incorrectly, John, is really a combination of wisdom and love. 

John Voris:

Yes. 

Kim Eley:

And so that's the reason why there's that balance. And also why, like, how you were saying it, the justice people would make good people to have in power because you do have that balance and you're weighing thing and weighing it between the, the head and the heart, basically.

Jonathan Rogers (17:23):

So, and I would say I come out with this idea and, and I believe John agrees with this, that in love is the starting of everything. You must first care about a thing to desire to have it come into existence. 

You have to pay attention, you have to focus on that now. And this kind of all happens like a big bang, like all at once. But I have to describe it to other people as a linear step process because that's who I am. 

Kim Eley (17:48):

There we go. Awesome. That's the, I'm going to jump in right here. Go for, we're going to take a short break and we will be right back.

**Break**

Kim Eley (19:08):

All right, fantastic. Glad y'all are still with us. Here we are. We are talking with Jonathan Rogers. Let's dive back in. 

So Jonathan, you were starting to introduce a little bit about the fact that love is, I'm going to say the verse that the alpha, the starter, so to speak. 

Jonathan Rogers (19:26):

Yeah, and we're, we're talking about, you know—the Greeks had several terms for love, which is fantastic because there's a separation in English. We have one word, and I think it was illustrated well by the character Cyrnano in “Roxanne.” You know, I forgot the actor's name on —but you know the movie “Roxanne” from the, from the eighties—

Kim Eley (19:46):

Nineties? Yes. Steve Martin!

Jonathan Rogers (19:47):

Steve Martin. Thank you. Yeah. So when he was trying to woo the gal, she goes, “oh, you love me.” 

He goes, “no, I could never use the word love. You know, it's used in advertisement. How can you love a laundry detergent?” You know, that type of thing. 

And that's the, that's the problem with English. So one of the dominant words in Greek is agape. Now agape describes an unconditional love. It only goes out and it, it has no judgment with it whatsoever. And so that's the type of love John will refer to it as care because it's, you know, it's focused attention. So in order to bring anything into existence, you first must care about it then because it affects not only you, but it affects the other. There's a relationship. That's when justice steps in and goes, “okay, well is it morally and ethically good for the other?”

Jonathan Rogers (20:39):

And if it satisfies that it moves onto the wisdom quadrant, it's like, “okay, let's do this.” How, what, where, when, why, you know, that's the context, right? And if it satisfies that, then it moves over to the action quadrant, the power quadrant, where you can then manifest that out into the world. 

And so of course it's not linear, it's happening holistically. It's all happening within big burst of a moment of now. And so when I describe it that way, people start to get it and see it. Now, if you then know the holographic nature of the universe and that it is fractal, you can see how it's replicated down to an infinite level and scaled up into an infinite level.

Kim Eley (21:24):

So when you say it is broken into an infinite level, just to, I think you're talking about the relationship between all of the life themes—are you talking about, do we go in and out of them?

Jonathan Rogers (21:35):

Explain why? Just those as a philosophical abstract concepts, those things are represented throughout everything. For instance, a lot of your listeners might be familiar with Don Miguel Ruiz. Oh, yes. He wrote The Four Agreements. 

Right there. <Laugh>, when I see a book title with four on it, I immediately go, “all right, let me see that.” Let me see if I can break it down. 

So I'll give it to you as an example. So he says, “be impeccable with your word.” Well, you know, what does that mean? Impeccable, truthfully. Accurately, precisely. That's justice right there.

So he also said, “take nothing personally. Take no offense.” You know what, that's love. You know, it's just accepting. 

So he says, “don't make assumptions.” Well, that's easy. Wisdom can't possibly know everything. So ask questions instead. 

And then of course, “always do your best or be determined,” you know? So strive for excellence, that's power. Empower likes to have mastery over something. So right there in that Toltec wisdom that Don Miguel Ruiz has been dispensing is the ancient understanding of these four. Although not called love justice, wisdom, power in modern terms.

Kim Eley (22:46):

Yeah. Excellent. That is fantastic. 

So, so curious to know, Jonathan, as you've worked with John and learned more about Authentic Systems, how have you watched others being impacted by either learning their life theme or learning how to interact with other life themes?

Jonathan Rogers (23:05):

Yeah, I've watched some people based on their identity will go, “oh, that's cute. That's, that's good. A good note.” And they go about their daily lives. 

Others really find it impactful where they stop certain behaviors. And John often says, “you know, we all have problems.” That's what this realm is about, is having problems and limitations and overcoming those. But he says you need the right problems and not the wrong problems. And that definitely throws people for a loop. And in fact, let's have John describe what an example would be of a right and a wrong problem.

John Voris (23:45):

Let's think of the Wright brothers. The airplane crash is the right problem to have. That's what they're there to do, is combat gravity. The wrong problem is to go up to the hanger and open up the doors and the plane's gone. So—but the airplane crash, they didn't complain about the airplane crash. This is their job. This was their purpose. 

So a lot of people take all of the problems they have and lump it together and don't realize there are problems that they are there to conquer. And it's their challenge and it gives them purpose. So another example is if I said, “today I'm going to, this morning I'm going to shave,” I think, “well, of course I got a beard on so <laugh>,” but if I were to shave, [I would] say, “well, that's not a, a goal, that's not a purpose. That doesn't mean anything.” Well, it really doesn't until I say—[if] I had a, had an operation on my shoulder and it was in a cast and yesterday was the first day it was taken off. And my doctor said, “I want you to try to shave and move that arm up to give that shoulder exercise.” Now it [shaving] is a goal. So what made the goal, you must have obstacles.

John Voris (25:00):

Obstacles define goals and achievements. So what I do is I have people that are really overwhelmed with all of the problems and I break it down so they understand that they really did select these problems and they need to do something else with these other problems, separate them.

Kim Eley (25:17):

That's excellent. So John, let me ask you, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're getting to the why or the real reason for it, like your example of shaving.

Shaving could just be, you know, it's just an action. But many people may shave for different reasons. Somebody could shave because they have a job interview. Somebody could shave in your example because they need the physical movement. So is it that you are ultimately digging for the why behind the action?

John Voris (25:50):

Well, the first phase is “us.” My clients come in with being overwhelmed by problems. So what I, first thing I do is I break them down and try to identify where, where they land. Then when it comes to the wrong problems that are in their life, then we deal with that specifically. 

So the way this started was this, this young man worked in a chocolate factory <laugh>. And he was he was like, “the supervisor, all he did is complain.” And so then I said, “you want to get, you want to eliminate all those problems.” 

“Oh, I'd love to quit!”

Kim Eley (26:26):

<Laugh>.

John Voris (26:26):

Well, so then he'd have nothing to do and he got it in that moment because we had talked about right and wrong problems. Those are the right problems. That's why he's there. So the owner of the business needs problems solved and that's why he is there and that's what we do.

Kim Eley (26:40):

Gotcha. So to simplify, just to break that down, you said, “well, just quit.” His reason for being there is solving the problems. It's not, “gee, I'd sure would like this position if there were no problems.” It's, well, that's what you're there for. Is that correct?

John Voris (26:55):

That's their job in that moment. They're there to do. And they do. And if they're happy with the job, then they're in the right place. Sometimes they become unhappy only because they mix the two groups together and they become overwhelmed.

Kim Eley (27:09):

I want to dig a little further into that. So John, what would be a wrong problem and what would be a right problem? 

John Voris (27:15):

When you outline a plan and you have a purpose along the way, there's issues that have to be resolved. Those are the right problems to have. 

But if you have an issue that's outside of that goal, that's the wrong problem to have. And you need to address that and eliminate, whereas the right problems aren't there to be eliminated, they're there to be dealt with in an ongoing fashion.

Kim Eley (27:36):

Gotcha. Okay. Awesome. 

So Jonathan, I'll go pose the same question to you. What might be a, a description of a wrong problem and what might be a right problem that somebody could face?

Jonathan Rogers (27:47):

Yeah, I like another phrase that John coined that there's nothing to fix. Only something to come to know or something to realize. 

And so a lot of times people will say, “I've got this issue and that issue and these things are taking place and there's something wrong with me. I'm obviously flawed and I can't get along with people” or whatever. And it's, “well, you're probably just looking at it differently.” 

And you know, in fact there's—I do believe John taught me this illustration about the bus, the bus stopping at the hospital and picking up father and two children. We're immediately, the kids are disrupting. Everybody running up and down the aisle screaming and all. And this, the father's just sitting there going, he's not doing anything. So one person [is] sensitive, he goes essentially accusing the father of being a horrible father and disruptive of everybody else.

Jonathan Rogers (28:38):

He goes, “why can't you get ahold of these kids? What's wrong with you?” 

And [the father] goes, “yeah, I'm sorry. I, their mother just died. We came from the hospital, she's gone. I don't know what to do.” And immediately that's a shift in viewpoint. It's like, this guy's got a free pass. He and his kids just let him go. 

And so when you learn who you are and you know that there's something called right problems and wrong problems and that there's nothing to fix, all there is is a shift of perspective. You can even stay in the same job and shift your perspective. Or maybe it's best to get out of that job because you're a love person and you really care about people, yet your boss is telling you, forget the people. Give them this piece of information of here that's counter to you and it actually hurts people. Well, in good conscience, you can no longer do that job. It's best to get out, oh, I would say.

Kim Eley (29:29):

Jonathan, we talked before about you immediately identified authentic or the life themes from Authentic Systems. Do you use Authentic Systems in your everyday life when you meet someone? 

I personally do this. I'm constantly thinking, “huh, I think this is a power person or—” So are you, are you doing that and how do you use it in your personal and professional life?

Jonathan Rogers (29:52):

Oh yeah. Now it's just automatic, you know. And what it offers to is a lot of patience, you know, because it's not like, “oh, I, I don't like this person. This person's annoying.” It's like, “how fascinating!”

Jonathan Rogers (30:06):

<Laugh>, Wow, look, you know, and if anything, you have more understanding. I sometimes refer to it as pity, but it could be empathy or sympathy, you know, where it's like, “oh, poor person doesn't get it.” They're just, you know, if they only had knowledge of who they truly were, they could really navigate this space. 

So for me, yeah, it's very quick. I can walk down the street and start spotting life themes. What's a little bit more difficult for me and what I'm still learning is a person's authentic motivator. Authentic motivator, excuse me. Which is their specific mode of that theme. And one of the facets that should be covered is that there's and this is what I'm really bringing on board now for myself, is identifying abstract versus physical results oriented people because that's a true communication style. Now John happens to be abstract results.

Jonathan Rogers (31:01):

That's what he wants to see, kind of at the end of the day, I want to see physical results. So I'll give you an example of that because two people can be up to the very same activity yet in that moment, up to very different things. 

So I have a friend who sings and she quite well. She's in a band with me, I sing. And so what I'm doing is I'm listening physically for the notes and I'm trying to adjust myself and or try to get it as precise as possible because I want no dissonance, no disharmony to the listener's ear. And then as a byproduct of that, if I enjoy myself, I win. But really I want them to have the best physical experience possible. And then from that arises an abstract emotion or feeling within them. Whereas my friend, she is singing in the moment and feeling good about herself and enjoying. And as a byproduct, if the audience enjoys themselves, then that's great.

Kim Eley (32:11):

Excellent.

Jonathan Rogers (32:11):

And John can explain it a little further on that.

John Voris (32:14):

[You] did a good job. Another way to approach that, especially with couples is—my wife for example, calls me up and says, “by the way, I picked up your laundry and you don't have to worry about it.” Now that's physical. I'll call her up and say, “how'd you like to go out to dinner tonight?” So I'm going to prepare an abstract atmosphere, but she gets to say, “you never do anything around the house.” And I get to say, “you never called me up for dinner.” Right? <Laugh>. 

So this is how couples don't communicate. And I've actually solved issues like this with couples. You're doing the same thing. You're both showing affection, but one's listening for the physical, the other one's listening for the abstract. So now I have to consciously do things around the house and she has to consciously make it a point to gimme a call and go out to dinner. It's beautiful, it's great. You don't have, have that conflict.

Jonathan Rogers (33:07):

Yeah. It eliminates resentment too. So I was with a partner and [wondered] “why isn't she cleaning the kitchen? Why isn't she cooking? Why do I have to pick up the cooking and the cleaning?” 

And it was getting frustrating and you would start kind of storing up resentment. As soon as I found out that she was abstract results, everything went away because she's incapable of that. Not to say that she can't actually do those things. It's not right. It doesn't occur. It's not immediate. So some might accuse her of being thoughtless or lazy or whatever, but all that goes away when you realize, “oh, it's not their mode. It doesn't happen so quickly for them as it would for me.” Okay, cool. You don't turn to someone that's mentally deficient that requires 24 hour care and say, do your math problem or do my accounting. You wouldn't request that of that person. And it's not to minimize abstract people at all. Not saying that they're inferior to physical results people, but that's just an example. 

John Voris (34:12):

So what aspect that does happen through this process is what I really searching for is self-acceptance and the acceptance of others. Because once you realize if you're an abstract person, that's fine. We need them and we also need physical result people. So once you identify each other, you, then you realize that you can actually work together and you are given responsibilities that you're best at. You're given other responsibilities that you are best at than an accumulated effect is success and what you're up to.

Kim Eley (34:45):

Fantastic. I love it. This is a good place for us to stop, although this is fascinating. I could go on much longer, but I do want to say thank you to our listeners and thank you Jonathan, for joining us today.

Jonathan Rogers (34:58):

Thank you. I enjoyed being on the show.

Kim Eley (35:02):

Oh, absolutely. 

John, if anybody is interested in reaching out to you or having a conversation or an assessment, what's the best way for them to get ahold of you?

John Voris (35:11):

My email, john@authentic-systems.com.

Kim Eley (35:17):

Fantastic. And thank you to the listeners. 

And listen, we would love to have your questions, so feel free to reach out to us and share your thoughts. But gentlemen, thank you both so much. This has been really interesting. Thank

Jonathan Rogers (35:31):

Thank you for having me.