How to Succeed in Sales

Are you considering a career in sales? Then you might be interested to know that 70% of people who take up jobs in sales end up failing.

On this episode, John Voris and Kim Eley will explore the origin story behind John's career in sales and his journey to discovering Authentic Systems. 

We'll uncover the four archetypes — Love, Justice, Wisdom, and Power — and discuss the surf, turf, and amphibian approach to selling. 

You'll also learn why not all sales positions are the same and how the philosophy or worldviews of each rep impacts their rates of success. 

Join us for an engaging deep dive into what it takes to succeed in sales. It could change your entire career!

For more information go to johnvoris.com

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Transcript

Episode 11 – How to Succeed in Sales

Kim Eley (00:30):

Hello and welcome back to Authentic Living Podcast for a Better Life. And you are here with me, your co-host, Kim Eley, and our other awesome co-host, John Voris. Hello. 

And John, I want to delve into something today. So I know from our conversations that authentic systems really started when you were in sales, right?

Kim Eley (01:00):

And I think a lot of people know this, they may not know the exact statistic, but about 70% of people who go into sales according to Forbes Magazine, end up failing.

John Voris (01:17):

That's true.

Kim Eley (01:18):

So that's kind of wild because you think of, you know, really sales is a huge industry and how important it is. I want to know who's to blame. 

Why do we have this ginormous 70% failure rate in sales?

John Voris (01:37):

Oh, exactly. That was my first question because as you all know, I tried sales seven times in a row, and I was either fired or quit three times, fired four times. And so I later, of course, entered into sales in a different circumstances, and part of it was discovering what sales was really all about. I employed, say, the continental view of psychology and motivation, and I applied that and found all the answers I needed. That lasted me 20 years. So I did door to door sales for 20 years. So this is for your audience. 

So I-I'm most definitely qualified. And so I looked at the seven failures and realized the reason why is the training in this country is really giving the wrong message. And the only way I can survive and succeed was to abandon everything I learned in insane <laugh> in this country. I had to abandon every, everything all. The only thing I kept was “Hello”!

Kim Eley (02:36):

<Laugh>.

John Voris (02:38):

So one article that I did years ago was called “Surf Turf and Frog Legs” <laugh>. And so I thought that was kind of cute for title. And what—

Kim Eley (02:48):

I love it!

John Voris (02:49):

—about is to separate what surf turf and you could say, amphibian, sales is all about. So let's go to turf. And when you're in turf sales, it's like selling cars. You, you have a location, you have training on that location. You have people surrounding you, giving you help and giving you answers you might need on giving you directions how to deal with prospects. Quite often you're given a salary or at least a draw. The other is what's most important is the client or potential customers seeing you. 

You're just standing around waiting. And so you don't have to go out in the world and get your client. And the other is, is when they walk onto the lot, doesn't mean they're ready to buy right now, but it means that that's a potential, they're there to look. And that's something that, and surf selling isn't present.

John Voris (03:45):

You have to create everything in surf selling, but in turf selling, you have a great deal of the issues somewhat resolved. You have to work at it, of course. And of course, many times people will come to look at cars and then just say they'll be back and you never see them again. But at the same time they're coming to you. 

So there's a big difference with surf selling. You have to be out in the world in some way. I have to explain, I used to call it cold calling “door to door sales.” So today there's separation, there's door to door and there's cold calling. So when I, in my day it was cold calling, if you're going door to door and you've never seen the person before, so with cold calling, you are never in one location. it's, you have to seek out your client.

John Voris (04:33):

You have to discover some kind of need and value and benefits that they'll perceive. So they'll be encouraged to buy. You have to justify the money spent. So you have to really create the entire sales environment in that moment. And when you see someone on a door-to-door basis, you usually have 30 seconds to do something that's 30 seconds. 

Back to, yeah, back to turf selling. You just wait. All right. So what does that do? Well, it means that there's a different kind of requirements for these people. One is when you're a turf salesperson, you really like security. You never move. You have—okay, you're surrounded by people that are helping you. then sometimes you're micromanaged, which means some people do like structure. 

But when you're surf selling, all that's gone. If you're out in the field, you don't have your supervisor with you helping you.

John Voris (05:36):

No advice. You structure your own day; which people are you going to see in what row or what businesses you're going to see in what row. You're going to create your own introduction for each new prospect. You're going to be in total control. No one knows where you're at. You just have to do it yourself. So the other is there's usually no draw. You're a hundred percent commission. That means that if you don't go out and sell, you don't make any money at all. Whereas with turf they'll give you usually a draw of some kind. And so those two are very, very different and draw on two very different worldview ideologies.

Kim Eley (06:21):

Separate question for you. So you gave the example with turf sales of the car salesman, and that makes sense. The customers come to the dealership and seek or run into the salesperson. What would be an example of surf sales?

John Voris (06:38):

Anyone that's on the phone and they're out surfing the environment, their domain, they're surfing their market. And so you could do that on the phone, or as I did, it was physical door to door. So that's what I mean by that.

Kim Eley (06:51):

Gotcha. So anybody like you would literally knock on the door And present your product. Got it.

John Voris (06:59):

Right. Right. But that really requires someone very different. You have to be very aggressive, be very determined. It's, it's a different aspect. There's another aspect which is what's surprising one is with turf selling or where you have your own location, you have to be patient. 

That's different. What I came up with, what you might call a hit rate, and what it is, is time, how many sales do you have to make a month to be happy to think you're generating progress that your job is meaningful? And so then the hit rate for somebody outside door to door sales, the surf selling, they might want 20 hits a day, whereas a car salesman might get three hits a month.

Kim Eley (07:43):

Hmm. 

John Voris (07:45):

Selling jets. How many of those would you get? Or even real estate houses, how many houses would you get in a year? So you have to have a great deal of patience with those type of jobs. Whereas door to door, they want more and they want it faster.

Kim Eley (08:00):

Gotcha.

John Voris (08:02):

Now, the way I came up with it, I’ve got to say this is—is when I was training, when I was training people on door to door, people came to me who did work, car sales and they were the first ones to go two weeks.

Kim Eley (08:15):

Hmm.

John Voris (08:16):

And I did the same reaction. How did that happen?

Kim Eley (08:20):

Yeah.

John Voris (08:21):

And then I started interviewing those people and that's how I came up with this one really provides security, the turf, but it doesn't have the freedom. The other one has the freedom.

John Voris (08:32):

But it doesn’t have security. And those were, you might save essential states of being that has to be not as satisfied in order for them to do well.

Kim Eley (08:41):

Gotcha.

John Voris (08:42):

That was a distinction. And I tried it out in many other areas and it became true.

Kim Eley (08:48):

Interesting. So you could have somebody who is in a turf sales position, which as you described, is more secure and a little bit more structured, but you have to be patient and they might think, “I'm a terrible salesperson because I've only sold two cars this month.” 

In reality, on average, they're actually doing great because it's such a big ticket item. You're not going to sell as many as you would if you were selling smaller, let's call them widgets <laugh>.

John Voris (09:19):

Right, right. Well, yes, that's true. But also they have a quota they'll give you, so you'll know if you're doing fine. 

But you hit on a good point, which is while that salesperson, even if they're not selling the quota, they might think they're terrible in sales. My point is, they're in the wrong industry.

Kim Eley (09:41):

Mm.

John Voris (09:42):

They're in the turf industry when they need to be over in the surf industry.

Kim Eley (09:47):

Gotcha.

John Voris (09:48):

Sometimes surf people—I try to carve sales job and I, I, last one week, I just left. I just couldn't do it anymore. Why? Because I stood around.

Kim Eley (09:58):

Yeah.

John Voris (09:59):

I stood around and I was so impatient I couldn't deal with that. 

Kim Eley (10:03):

Yeah.

John Voris (10:04):

The other one didn't like being micromanaged. I didn't like the structure. I didn't like someone always looking over my shoulder. So that tells you that you have the temperament of a surf salesperson. 

But people are doing the surf selling and they're not making it. Maybe it's not that they're not for those sales, they should go to the turf side.

Kim Eley (10:27):

Right, right.

John Voris (10:28):

This is my point. I'm trying to get, set it up so you can see that people in the audience think about what kind of sales were they in the surf of the turf, and how they feel about freedom. How did they feel about being managed? The surf people don't like being micromanaged at all. And so that works out.

Kim Eley (10:47):

Well. That's amazing. Gotcha. Very cool.

John Voris (10:52):

The amphibian, or what I call the frog legs in the article, it's like in real estate you have both an office and you have someone that's in charge and you also have the responsibility to go out in the field and sell real estate. So you have both. 

And so many people go out in real estate and because they didn't like the surf or they didn't like the turf, and they go that way. And the only way to really know if you're in sales is for you to try all three.

Kim Eley (11:20):

Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. Cool. 

So just to make sure I'm clear on it, so with the frog's legs or the amphibian, so with the real estate people, they do kind of have a home base in that they may have a physical office but yet they're also out in the field. Is that what makes it different from a typical turf sales in that they go to different locations? Or is there more to it?

John Voris (11:50):

Yeah, I get a little of both. So they have a sense of security, but at the same time, they have to be out in the field and they can always call back at the office and talk to someone and get invite there's usually someone in the office. So that works out well for them. 

And I think most real estate companies, maybe not today, but most of them did have a draw system and you do draw against your next sale. So that's another difference.

Kim Eley (12:17):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. 

John Voris (12:17):

But what I'm looking at, it's the psychology of the sales rep that we're talking about. It's deeper than that. It's not even psychology, it's philosophy or worldviews of that sales rep that's really controlling everything. 

And the sales training industry does not see it, does not recognize it. It's all a one size fits all and has a terrible, that's 70% fail rate. So that's what I'm trying to do is have people see that maybe it was not their fault.

Kim Eley (12:50):

Right.

John Voris (12:52):

There's the training and maybe with the training and their attitude. And so when I made this discovery, I really did help a lot of people that really dropped out for this reason. they were just in small category and they went to a different category and they were fine.

Kim Eley (13:06):

Interesting. Knowing what, you know, from having seen the training, that's one size fits all. 

And knowing what you know about the surf turf or the amphibian, how do you use Authentic Systems to help someone? Like, let's say somebody comes to you and they're like, “John, I'm in sales. I'm beating my head against the wallet. It sucks. This is not for me.” How would you assist them with getting that different mindset?

John Voris (13:32):

Well, one is, I have the authentic law of harmonic conformity. that is that your motivation and the product you're selling are the service you're selling and the environment in which you are doing the selling needs to be in conformity and balance with your authentic identity.

Kim Eley (13:50):

Gotcha.

John Voris (13:51):

So that line came directly from my 20 year’s experience with all three environments. It's holistic, it's just not one size fits all. And this is what's very, very important for people to know.

Kim Eley (14:05):

Excellent. Excellent. 

So thinking about the failure rate, and that must be really psychologically intense for people to get into sales and think, “oh my God, I'm a total failure at this.” How much of that is a barrier to people? Do people end up becoming closed-minded because they just shut down? Like what happens? 

John Voris (14:30):

Okay. So first of all, in sales, number one reason why people leave is rejection.

Kim Eley (14:35):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.

John Voris (14:36):

Especially door to door or cold calling. And when somebody says “no” to you over and over and over again, you can't separate it from who you are as an individual. 

Do you feel as if someone's saying no to you?

Kim Eley (14:49):

Yeah.

John Voris (14:50):

And turning you down. And so when that happens, you are having a sense of identity breakdown.

Kim Eley (15:00):

Hmm.

John Voris (15:00):

And that's what's called losing face, which has been studied study in sociology, when you feel like you're a certain way, a certain type or kind, and you go out in the world and the, and the people around you are saying, “no, you're not that.”

Kim Eley (15:16):

Yeah.

John Voris (15:17):

What happens? You really have a separation of identity and it's painful.

Kim Eley (15:23):

Yeah.

John Voris (15:24):

Then you feel guilty for what you're doing. You feel ashamed that you're in sales. Then people around you say, “oh, you're a salesman. Oh, that means you can't get a job.” <Laugh>.

Kim Eley (15:34):

Oh man.

John Voris (15:34):

Yeah, I've been told that. Ouch. We'll get a job.

Kim Eley (15:38):

You know. Oh my gosh.

John Voris (15:39):

Oh yeah. <Laugh> so and so. It is rejection. So that's another area that is a real problem when it comes to sales training. 

Fact, I had a list of about 50 myths in sales training. That is cold call reluctance is due to fear, real fear. What is-is the fear of losing your own identity?

Kim Eley (16:03):

Dang.

John Voris (16:05):

Okay.

Kim Eley (16:05):

That's intense <laugh>.

John Voris (16:07):

Yes. And the other one is the, they'll say, well, cold call reluctance is due to the fair success, but what we need is identity cohesion.

Kim Eley (16:19):

Hmm.

John Voris (16:19):

So if we have identity, weakness, or loss in any way, then that will cause us feeling of rejection. And quite often success means we're becoming something that we never thought we would be.

Kim Eley (16:38):

Ooh. Wow.

John Voris (16:41):

Now this is very true. There's people who really place boundaries around them. For example, you know, people who win lottery, millions of dollars. 

Kim Eley (16:51):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

John Voris (16:52):

Most of them lose. There was a statistics, I'd have to look it up, but it was a huge number that actually went bankrupt in five years.

Kim Eley (17:00):

Oh my gosh.

John Voris (17:01):

Why? Because they gave it away. Why? Cause that's not who they are.

Kim Eley (17:08):

Oh, snap.

John Voris (17:09):

So you say identity works in both ways. You can't be too successful and you can't fail too much. You have to be right in the middle of this. Of what you believe yourself to be.

Kim Eley (17:21):

Oh my gosh. That's intense. Tell you what, let's take a break right there. This is fascinating. But we will come back and we'll explore this some more. This is, this is really good stuff. John <laugh>.

John Voris (17:34):

Very good.

**Break**

Kim Eley (18:45):

Awesome. So welcome back to Authentic Living, Podcast for a Better Life. 

And John, before we went on break, we were talking about, you know, the fact that someone's identity, there are boundaries as far as people can't be too successful. Like you mentioned the lottery winners and then also people who have too many experiences with failure will give up in sales. That makes me think about, you know, what are some other things or issues that happen with sales that might bring people to the wrong conclusion?

John Voris (19:16):

One is their interpretation of what a need is. 

Now, in sales training, they'll always say, “listen to your customer and they will tell you what they need. And you listen to that and you work from that position.” 

Well, what I learned was the human mind only has one need. That is the perpetual need to express our authentic identity. We do that for logic people in events. That's the only need we have. Because it's one need. We can never stop. You can never stop expressing your identity. 

And so when someone says, “well this is what I need,” then we listen to that. Now we're going to fulfill that need and we're going to assume that need is correct and you know what your need is. That's another issue,

Kim Eley (20:03):

<Laugh>. 

John Voris (20:05):

And so we're going to follow that and I'm going to do my entire presentation on that need. And I'm going to ask some questions and kind of upgrade what that need might be. And that way I can make a larger sale. And I'm that need. But before you know it, I've actually lost the sale. 

I'll give an example. I worked with this company who sold fitness equipment and their sales were really, really bad. And I talked to the owner and I talked to the, the staff. We had a meeting. And so I stopped to realize, “okay, this is equipment to, to lose weight and build up your cardio and muscle, et cetera. So what do you think you're selling?” And so they all said we're selling physical fitness. 

So what happens when these people come in, in general, they ask for the cheapest one they have on the floor. They ask them, “well, would you like to build up a little bit of cardio?” “Yes.” “Well, here, here's this other model. Would you like to have a muscle strength and tone? Oh, we have another model.” Well, the time make it done with these people, they're double the price.

Kim Eley (21:09):

<Laugh>. Oh gosh. <Laugh>.

John Voris (21:11):

And so the next thing that happens is they walk out the door, they don't never see them yet. So why? 

And so the—this is it. These people are trying to sell a need that doesn't exist. And I said, “what age group?” And they said, “between 25 and 35.” 

And so then I just told 'em straight out, “you are selling sex. That's it.” What do I mean? 

Kim Eley (21:34):

<Laugh>.

John Voris (21:35):

These are people, they're people who are in the middle of a divorce, contemplating a divorce. They have been divorced, they're wanting to date. The gals want to lose some weight. The guys want to bulk up. They wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for that situation.

Kim Eley (21:50):

<Laugh> okay.

John Voris (21:52):

They don't care about cardio, they don't care about muscle tone. They don't, they’ve never owned a physical equipment in their life. So when they walk in the door and they say, “I want the cheapest on the floor,” you point to the cheapest on the floor. They don't sell it. And don't move past that. Six months later they had to rent out a warehouse.

Kim Eley (22:10):

For all—Oh my gosh.

John Voris (22:11):

Right. Six months. The owner called me up, he was ecstatic.

Kim Eley (22:15):

Holy cow. So the people there started heating your advice and they started, instead of saying, “oh, but you also like this feature and this feature and this feature.” They were just like, “oh, here's the least expensive model. It will get the job done.”

John Voris (22:31):

Right.

Kim Eley (22:32):

Got it! Right. Wow.

John Voris (22:34):

And so what that point is, because they're really selling to people who are single or plan to [be], and that's the real issue. It's not that they need the equipment. they don't really, what they need is to express that new identity that they're creating. 

Kim Eley (22:54):

Gotcha.

John Voris (22:55):

They’re coming to when they were thin. They're coming back to when the gals were a little thinner and the guys were a little bulkier and they, they want to go back. It's about their identity, it's about who they are. That's really at stake. It's not the machine. If they could take a pill and get the same effect, they'd do it.

Kim Eley (23:12):

Right. But because they can't. They're admitting—so that's so interesting. 

So how do you get to the mindset of <laugh>? I love that it's all about sex. That ultimately I'm thinking if I talked to somebody who is in that market and I said, “you know, oh, why are you getting this stair climber?” Like, “oh, you know, I need to get into shape.” “Well, why do you need to get into shape?” “Well, you know, I'm newly single. I'm going to be going out on the dating sites.” “Well, right. Why do you need that?” “Well, because I want to look cute. You know, <laugh>, I want to look attractive.”

John Voris (23:48):

Yeah. “Why are you buying a machine?” Start off with, “have you bought a machine like this in the past?” “No.” “Oh, is this something new?” “Yeah, we, I'm, I'm separated from my wife and I want to go out and date.” It's as simple as that. I mean the people will tell you. 

Kim Eley (24:01):

Yeah. 

John Voris (24:02):

You can actually sit down with the business owner and say, “okay, which models would we want to promote that can help these people get back on the dating scene?”

Kim Eley (24:13):

Huh. Gotcha.

John Voris (24:15):

Okay. And focus on that. The point is, is that the, what people need is what the object represents. It's the meaning of the object, not the object itself. No one cares about it.

Kim Eley (24:26):

Gotcha.

John Voris (24:28):

And that’s one big mistake we’ll make. 

Kim Eley (24:30):

Gotcha. 

So I want to examine this a little bit further. Before, when the exercise salespeople were saying, you know, “oh you want to get in shape, but do you need cardio? And do you need weights? You know, weight toning along with it.” And so the whole time they were leading to more and more expensive pieces of equipment. Right? 

I think, and tell me if I'm on the right track here, where that went astray was they really didn't want to spend that much. And they really, because I like the question that you said, you know, they would ask them, “oh, have you ever used this piece of workout equipment before?” And they would say no, they didn't really know what they were looking for. Is that correct?

John Voris (25:14):

Well, they're, they're looking to be more attractive. That's all they're looking for, whatever that means to them. More attractive. So that's what they need to be, I like the word to be—not to do but to be more attractive.

John Voris (25:28):

And so when you're in any kind of sales, rather than focusing on the object or the service, you focus on what it means to them.

Kim Eley (25:40):

Right.

John Voris (25:41):

Because that's where the need lies. It does not lie in the object itself. And this is another area where training is very misguided. And then of course it's a one size fits all. And I told you with the surf turf and amphibian, it throws people off and people fail in an area that it's natural you should fail in that area because you belong in another.

Kim Eley (26:03):

Right, right.

John Voris (26:05):

But another one, as you said was the idea of need. It's just the one need they need to do is to express themselves.

Kim Eley (26:12):

Yeah. Amazing. If you were a salesperson once again, what thought process would you go through? Let's say, would there be a different set of questions if you were a surf salesperson versus a turf salesperson? I guess to go back to the exercise equipment: was the exercise equipment, surf, turf or amphibian?

John Voris (26:34):

Oh, now that's for them, that was a turf.

Kim Eley (26:37):

Turf because people came to them.

John Voris (26:40):

They have a location. Yes.

Kim Eley (26:41):

Yeah. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. 

So what about, trying to think of another example. Well how about car salesman? What kind of question? Because I'm assuming that with car sales as well, because the advice is find out what the client needs. So if somebody comes up and they're like, “Hey, I need to look at a car,” what might be the good line of questioning?

John Voris (27:06):

Perhaps the very first question I would have. And they, they only ask it because they're thinking about a trade-in is what kind of car do you drive now?

Kim Eley (27:14):

Ah. Right.

John Voris (27:15):

So if I were to ask you what kind of car do you drive now, what would you tell me?

Kim Eley (27:21):

A Toyota Avalon.

John Voris (27:22):

What do you like about that?

Kim Eley (27:24):

Ah, I like the roominess of it. I like the fact that it looks like an executive car.

John Voris (27:30):

<Laugh>. Uh-huh, okay. Good, good, good. What else?

Kim Eley (27:33):

It's comfortable for long road trips and it has seat heaters, <laugh>.

John Voris (27:38):

Okay, good. That's very good. So you see I have that information is I'm going to transfer it to a car on the lot.

Kim Eley (27:45):

Gotcha.

John Voris (27:47):

Okay. So now you want to have, you're here because you want to buy a new one. 

So maybe the reason why you want to buy a new one is just to get an upgrade of what you already had or get a variation of what you already have. But I'm not going to sell you a truck.

Kim Eley (28:01):

Got it. Right. 

John Voris (28:03):

And I'm not going to sell you a sports car.

Kim Eley (28:04):

Right.

John Voris (28:06):

And I'm not going to sell you a big expensive Lincoln. So you see, just by knowing what you have it tells who you are.

Kim Eley (28:15):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

John Voris (28:16):

And by knowing who you are, that I know what I can get you into.

Kim Eley (28:21):

Gotcha. That makes sense, that makes sense. And so I was thinking about the exercise equipment people and the fact that it seems like, and is this a part of sales training that traditional sales training encourages yu, to always upsell?

John Voris (28:37):

Oh, yes. And also upsell as again, a one size fits all attitude. Upsell everyone. But the point is, is that rather than having the corporate view of what a client needs what I do is I taught them to look at the individual themselves and see what they need.

Kim Eley (29:00):

Gotcha. 

John Voris (29:01):

But the real need below what they want. Okay. Yes. 

So every time I saw a person, it was an individual, this is what they think they need, but this is what they really want or what they need. 

And so it does, it fluctuates and you can grasp what the real essence of them are just by continue to ask questions, very nonchalant. And you will get there. So when I—

Kim Eley (29:23):

That's awesome.

John Voris (29:24):

—did door to door sales, what I did is I looked at the objects around people and got an idea of what they mean in total like holistic or gestalt approach. Then I asked questions, so confirm what I discovered and then I took my widget and I spoke about my widget in that language.

Kim Eley (29:42):

Gotcha. Gotcha. Very cool. 

So you could craft it in those terms. So if you were the car salesperson and you were talking to me and I mentioned the things I mentioned, “I love seat heaters. I love having a comfortable ride. I love looking to executive,” I'm thinking, and tell me if I'm in the right train of thought here, that I would start asking questions like, “well why do you like having a comfortable ride?” You know, trying to call out some of those reasons. “Why is it that you're looking for this?” That kind of thing. In order to better understand that, basically you get them talking so that you know them better. Is that correct?

John Voris (30:22):

Well, that's part of it. But see, what you told was all feeling aspects, weren't they?

Kim Eley (30:26):

Ah, yes, they were. Yes, that's true. Yeah.

John Voris (30:31):

So now I know that what you're looking for is the feel of comfort to a car and appreciation of that. And so that's would be my focus, is it would all be sensual.

Kim Eley (30:44):

Gotcha. So it would be wise not to come back with, “well this car has ump-ti-ump horsepower and it gets you from zero to 60.’ It's like, “whatever, I don't care. How does it feel?” <Laugh>? That's what—

John Voris (30:57):

That's exactly right. And so, but the salespeople are not trained to do that. The corporations decide what their market is. they decide they decide what their market wants and needs and then they train their people to look for that.

Kim Eley (31:12):

Mm gotcha.

John Voris (31:15):

So assuming that it's there and it's not. 

So another example was this guy came into an appliance store and he is looking for an air conditioner. He's in Texas. And so the same thing. “What are you looking for?” “I'm, I'm just [looking for an] air conditioner” and “Oh, what size do you want?” “I'm not quite sure.” “Well, here's his, this model, this model, this model.” Each one has more, more attractions to it. And, and “would you like this?” And same thing with the physical equipment and just upgrade. Upgrade. And so now it is twice the much as they thought he was going to pay. And so he walks out and goes the next door and does the same thing. But this time the salesman says, “well, why don't you need an air conditioner? Why, why are you buying an air conditioner?”

Kim Eley (31:59):

<Affirmative>.

John Voris (32:00):

“Well it's because my mother-in-law just got a new one and my wife is upset and I don’t really 

John Voris (32:07):

Care about the air conditioner at all. Just get me one <laugh>. That's the real answer.

Kim Eley (32:13):

Right, right.

John Voris (32:16):

Because that's the individual.

Kim Eley (32:17):

<Laugh>. That's amazing.

John Voris (32:21):

And so when you start looking at what sales is, each person is walking in with their own worldview and they're looking for objects that can express their authentic identity. And they have their own rules and regulations on what that is. And it's a, your, your job as a salesperson to find that out. 

John Voris (32:43):

They are the target star. They're the star of the situation. You have to assess them first and then move backward.

Kim Eley (32:50):

That's so cool.

John Voris (32:51):

Yeah. And that way you're really doing a service to them.

Kim Eley (32:55):

I just realized something. Tell me what you think. It's like instead of traditional sales, which often will have you reading from a script, right? And saying, “oh, say this or say that.” It's really a skill. It's really a skill where you figure out how to read into their language and then you adapt to that. Not a difficult skill, but a subtle skill because you're figuring out on the fly what matters to that person. And because it doesn't go by a script. 

Like for instance, your example of, “well my mother-in-law got an air conditioner. My wife wants one now,” you know, if you dig beneath that, the real need is not for an air conditioner. It's happy spouse, happy house!

John Voris (33:41):

<Laugh>. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Kim Eley (33:44):

But in addition to that skill of reading what the client really wants or needs, you also as a salesperson become less salesy, meaning disingenuous—you know I think that's why sometimes people get turned off by salespeople. Or salespeople have a bad rap because somebody's talking at you instead of talking with you.

John Voris (34:06):

Well, yes. And there's another approach I had, believe it or not, and people listen to this can try it. It's a lot of fun. <Laugh> What I used to do is sit in my car before I saw in the morning. Usually when I, my first client prospect, I would sit in the car and I would say, “I can't sell. I don't, I don't know anything about sales. Sales is not for me. You know, I'm going to talk to that person in that store. He's not going to buy from me and I don't really care. My job today is not to sell a thing. My job today is to make friends.” By shifting my target, my mental target.

Kim Eley (34:45):

Right.

John Voris (34:46):

What I do is I am not being attacked [by rejection]. Rather that my attitude is so low key.

Kim Eley (34:54):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

John Voris (34:55):

Their boundaries don't go up.

Kim Eley (34:58):

Ooh, that's cool.

John Voris (35:00):

I says, you know, I'm—"Hello Joe, I'm from ABC Company, how are you today? What's going to— It's like, “oh, you're too slick.”

Kim Eley (35:06):

Bye-Bye.

John Voris (35:08):

<Laugh>. Oh yeah. Oh, here comes all the boards coming up and barriers and “get out of here” and “I don't have time.” But if you just walk in like you're a buddy…

Kim Eley (35:17):

<Affirmative>

John Voris (35:17):

And which is what I'm trying to do, and I might say, “oh, hey Kim. Oh, this is really a neat room. I see the back. So you do—I guess that's soundproofing. That's really sharp. So let me tell you, this is what I do. Have you ever seen one of our hams?”

Kim Eley (35:35):

<Laugh>

John Voris (35:37):

You see how slow that was?

Kim Eley (35:39):

Yes. 

John Voris (35:40):

And I said, “just wait here, take a look at, I've got a brochure right here and take a look at that and I'll walk out. I'll be right back.” So I don't even mention my name.

Kim Eley (35:49):

Right.

John Voris (35:50):

I don't even mention my company. I don't do any of the things that a salesperson would do.

Kim Eley (35:56):

Great.

John Voris (35:56):

I said, “here I am.”

Kim Eley (35:59):

Hey, that's it. “And oh, by the way—"

John Voris (36:01):

But now for a love person, I would say, “do you know Janet at the beauty salon? A couple doors down.” “Oh, Janet, of course I do.” “Well, you know, she has bought, she bought one of our turkeys that is going to be delivered next week. Have you ever seen one of our brochures?”

Kim Eley (36:15):

<Laugh>

John Voris (36:15):

You see how different that is.

Kim Eley (36:18):

Very different. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.

John Voris (36:22):

I became the non-salesperson salesperson.

Kim Eley (36:25):

That's awesome. Oh my gosh. 

Well, this has been fascinating. Oh my gosh. And John, I think there's so much to this sales topic. We could probably do future podcasts on it, don't you think?

John Voris (36:37):

Absolutely. Because there's many, many other aspects of this. The one is I was able to, for myself, and I've taught this to others, enable them to eliminate, that's the word I will use, eliminate the sense of rejections in the sales process. Eliminate, not play with, not give another name like they do in sales training. But actually—

Kim Eley (37:00):

That's amazing. Oh, snap.

John Voris (37:01):

Yeah.

Kim Eley (37:03):

Okay. Let's make a commitment. We will have that as a topic. Let's wrap up for today. 

But before we do, John, how can people get in touch with you if they're interested in, you know, selling authentically and learning their own authentic identity?

John Voris (37:16):

Well, one is you can email me at john@authentic-systems.com. Awesome. Or you go to my site, authentic systems.com.

Kim Eley (37:28):

Fantastic.

John Voris (37:29):

Either way. I’ll get back to you.

Kim Eley (37:31):

Excellent. Fantastic. Well, thank you listeners for joining us, and we will look forward to chatting with you next time.

John Voris (37:40):

Very good.