Combatting Rejection with Maslow

What does Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs have to do with rejection? More than you might think.

Drawing from Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, John and Kim discuss the misinterpretation of this famous theory by many Americans and how we can use this theory to manage our own reactions to rejection. 

They also provide insight into how to cope with all forms of rejection, from a rejection letter to face-to-face interactions, so we can live more fulfilled lives. 

Join them for a meaningful conversation that could help you help you manage rejection sensitivity and better cope with challenges in life.

For more information go to johnvoris.com

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Transcript

Episode 12 – Combatting Rejection with Maslow

Kim Eley (00:03):

Hello and welcome back to Authentic Living Podcast for a Better Life. And you are here with your co-hosts, me, Kim Eley, and also John Voris. Hello. 

And I am really interested to talk about this topic, John, because this is something nobody likes, <laugh>, and it is rejection, right? 

Nobody likes rejection. Ah, so, so tell us more, a little bit about rejection and how it's related with our lives in authentic living.

John Voris  (00:45):

Well first of all, I must say that I had this problem with rejection when I was in the sales industry. Door to door for 20 years though. So I had to solve rejection and quickly, and it could not do it through any sources that could be found in this country. I had to explore European sources.

And also I—what started me on this was of all things [was] Maslow, and he has a hierarchy of needs. And so I started examining what was being printed about that, and also reading what he actually said. And they're not the same. But in so doing, I was able to learn ways to combat rejection.

Kim Eley (01:34):

Awesome. I just wanted to jump in real quick, because you mentioned one of my favorite people, and Mr. Abraham Maslow, I believe that's his full name. 

John Voris  (01:43):

That’s right.

Kim Eley (01:44):

And so Maslow is important because his name gets mentioned frequently with I know I, I personally have a, a project, PMP, project management professional certificate, and part of what we studied as part of our body of knowledge included Mr. Maslow and the hierarchy of  needs. So I just wanted to, wanted you shout out to Mr. Maslow, not that he's still with us, but Maslow fans. 

John Voris  (02:14):

That’s right. No, he is outstanding, very brilliant. But what he said and what the American version is, is quite different.

Kim Eley (02:22):

Okay. 

John Voris  (02:24):

So it started off with the fact that I have here is the theory of human motivation by Maslow.

Kim Eley (02:31):

Hmm.

John Voris  (02:31):

So I'm just going to  read just a little bit to give you an idea of how different it really is between what we've been told and what he really said. 

Now, the five levels are physiological needs, safety, belonging, esteem, and finally, self-actualization. Those are the general five. Go ahead.

Kim Eley (02:53):

So those are usually shown as a pyramid, correct? Yes. 

So what's the bottom layer? [Looking at a screen together] 

Figure 1https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html

Did, did you—Oh move, move it over a little bit here. Yeah, there we go. Okay. Okay. Cool, cool, cool. So, yeah. Okay. 

So self-actualization is a little tiny bit on the top, right? So, so you start from the bottom and build up. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay.

John Voris  (03:15):

Yeah. So it's like physiologic, you need food, you need sleep, you need shelter, things like that. Safety, you need clothes and shelter belonging. You want to be part of a group. You need to be experience affection. And then you want to build your own self-esteem. And the final level is self-actualization. And so that's that's what the American version is. Okay. Ah,

Kim Eley (03:45):

Okay.

John Voris  (03:45):

And each one is a, in lockstep, you need the, has solved the physiological issues, then you solve the safety issues. Okay. So this is how we're taught, but

Kim Eley (03:55):

That's what I remember learning that you, you have to satisfy the base of the pyramid first before you can move up to the next level. And so, if I could give a quick example. 

When I was taught about it for project management, what example that they used is, it's all well and good if you provide you know work for your employees that they enjoy doing and they're satisfied with, but they're never going to  enjoy it if their basic need for, let's say clean bathroom facilities is not met. If they have to run two blocks down and go to the gas station to go to the bathroom, their needs aren't being met and they can't work.

John Voris  (04:41):

<Laugh> That's unusual. I never heard that one before.

Kim Eley (04:46):

So that's how I was taught it. I thought I would jump in. So, I—

John Voris  (04:51):

Alright, so, so I'm going to  read right just a little bit from this this book here. The Theory of Human Motivation by Maslow. So he's really talking about degrees of relative satisfaction.

Kim Eley (05:05):

Hmm.

John Voris  (05:06):

So far, our theoretical discussion may have given the impression that these five sets of needs are somehow in stepwise all or none relationship to each other.

Kim Eley (05:18):

Hmm.

John Voris  (05:18):

We have spoken in such terms as the following. If one need to satisfy, if one need is satisfied, then another emerges. This statement might give the false impression that a need must be satisfied a hundred percent before the next need emerges.

Kim Eley (05:36):

Ah.

John Voris  (05:38):

In actual fact, most members of our society who are normal, are partially satisfied in all their basic needs and partially unsatisfied in all their basic needs at the same time.

Kim Eley (05:53):

Ooh.

John Voris  (05:54):

A more realistic description of the hierarchy would be in terms of decreasing percentages of satisfaction as we go up the hierarchy. 

For instance, I may assign arbitrary figures for the sake of illustration. It is as if the average citizen is satisfied, perhaps 85% in the physiological needs, 70% in safety needs, 50% in love needs, 40% in self-esteem, and 10% in self-actualization.

Kim Eley (06:31):

Wow.

John Voris  (06:32):

So it never was a jump from one rung to the next. Never. But this is how he's been interpreted. 

Kim Eley (06:44):

Right, right.

John Voris  (06:45):

In fact, I saw this in a marketing handbook that I read years ago, but it's, you have to have each one solved. That's not what he said.

Kim Eley (06:56):

Gotcha. So, with that, having been said, and thank you for sharing that, because that's fascinating. Oh, yes. 

But it does kind of kick the, the, the legs out from under you know, what, what, what we're often taught here in, in, in America so instead of a pyramid where you, it almost reminds me, John, of like a video game where you have to finish level one before you can go to level two.

John Voris  (07:25):

Right. 

Kim Eley (07:26):

There you go. Sure. Is that a good analogy? Yeah. 

So instead of being like a video game, we can all function at say, 85% at, at the, the, you know, first and, and in different varying degrees of percentage. So what does that mean to us versus having, say, conquered level one? That, that we're in this state of flux and we haven't hit a hundred percent on each thing?

John Voris  (07:52):

Well, what's happening is realistically, as he said, normal people they, they touch each aspect, but not fully. There's a lot of people go to bed hungry.

Kim Eley (08:04):

Hmm.

John Voris  (08:04):

A lot of people don't have shelter

John Voris  (08:06):

They have a family that takes care of them.

Kim Eley (08:10):

Okay. Gotcha.

John Voris  (08:10):

So, so and he was aware of that. That's why, that's why this version is so upsetting to many people who really know Maslow, because it's, it's not how it is. This is a very general, it's, I might say it's a, it's an absolute theory of humanity. In general, these are the steps we need to go through, but we don't, we don't do it all the time, and we do it by percentage.

Kim Eley (08:38):

Gotcha.

John Voris  (08:40):

That's all it means.

Kim Eley (08:42):

So this is fascinating because from the project management standpoint, from what I remember being presented, it was like, “you better, Project Manager, go back and solve these issues, these basic needs before your team can advance.” And, and that's just not the case.

John Voris  (09:05):

Not at all.

Kim Eley (09:06):

Gotcha. 

John Voris  (09:07):

That’s not, not what he meant. And so by saying this and by saying how deceptive the interpretation is in this country, I, and I, my goal was to find motivations with regards to rejection.

Kim Eley (09:20):

Right.

John Voris  (09:21):

I thought I could find it here, but I can't. You see, I had interest that and dismiss the pyramid.

Kim Eley (09:31):

So—so you're saying that because you were saying, you were looking at the pyramid and trying to figure out where rejection fell on the pyramid.

John Voris  (09:41):

Yeah. Right.

Kim Eley (09:43):

Okay.

John Voris  (09:44):

How, how it interfaced with it. But still, by re going on to read more of Maslow of what his real writings were, I did start to come with, with ideas. And what, what he wrote in the, and I actually in the same book, is that one of the greatest fears we have is to know who we really are and who we really are. 

Consider it, it considers also the shadow side of us that we keep from our, that we don't like to focus on. Or are they unconscious? And—but this fear has a relationship to our, our inner fear has a relationship to our outer fear of life itself of people. That the idea is what's real is something that we have to make up in a way, and to have a stable psyche and a stable understanding of the world, because no two people are the same.

Kim Eley (10:46):

Right.

John Voris  (10:47):

Everyone has a shadow side, and they have a side that they don't know who they are. 

So you have this inner area and outer side, and they mirror the relationships of the world. And we also believe we have inner problems, and we have other problems regarding these relationships and or, and general experiences. This type of fear is defensive by protecting our self-esteem. We are afraid of any new knowledge that could cause us to feel inferior, weak, worthless, evil, and thus be ashamed for doing something that caused us guilt.

Kim Eley (11:28):

Ah.

John Voris  (11:30):

Okay. So Maslow was an existentialist.

Kim Eley (11:34):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

John Voris  (11:35):

Okay. Well, that's not, that's not how he's portrayed in the, in the more common books that we see, the more modern, he's an animal. 

Just like the American psychology. And so what we have are feelings of like, say joy and love and trust and sadness. And we have all these feelings discussed in even anger. because all these feelings and emotions are designed to keep our identity unified and cohesive.

Kim Eley (12:07):

Hmm.

John Voris  (12:08):

You see how this is so different than the five levels?

Kim Eley (12:12):

It's super different. Yeah.

John Voris  (12:14):

And it's in the same book.

Kim Eley (12:15):

That's wild. So is, so you're talking about the emotions—

John Voris  (12:24):

—and feelings.

Kim Eley (12:25):

And feelings. So rejection, it evolves from those emotions and feelings.

John Voris  (12:31):

What's happening is not from them.

Kim Eley (12:35):

Okay.

John Voris  (12:35):

These, these are designed to be defensive mechanisms. So you're anger angry because of something occurring that you have to defend yourself. You have to, you have to stand up for your own commitments, for example. That anger, I'll be focusing on in a minute. And, and you know, you, you, you enjoy something and you fear something. So all these emotions and feelings are keeping your, keeping you, you unified.

Kim Eley (13:01):

Right. 

John Voris  (13:02):

That’s because who we are is just clusters of ideas.

Kim Eley (13:05):

<Laugh>. Yeah.

John Voris  (13:06):

So you have to keep your ideas unified. This is how you do it, this is love, this is hate, this is joy, this is misery. And so what you do is you gravitate toward the good. And you avoid the bad. And so, but the good still conforms to who you are.

Kim Eley (13:23):

Hmm. Okay.

John Voris  (13:24):

It's always building. You are always self-organizing.

Kim Eley (13:29):

So part of the self-organizing, then identifying the what's good and what's bad would include rejection, rejecting that which is not yourself.

John Voris  (13:41):

Very good. I'm going to  get right to it. 

Kim Eley (13:43):

Oh sorry, <laugh>, I jumped ahead, John. 

John Voris  (13:46):

No, you're good. <Laugh>. So, so the idea of rejection is because this is what I had to deal with in sales.

Kim Eley (13:54):

<Affirmative>

John Voris  (13:55):

When you identify with an object or a person—

John Voris  (14:02):

Then you have an opportunity of having these feelings be extended to that object or person. So for example, if, if there's a party and you, you're not invited but you don't know the people, do you care?

Kim Eley (14:20):

Hmm. No.

John Voris  (14:22):

No. So it's not that rejection is always rejection to the person because they have their own type and kind of rejection that impacts them because it has to correspond to does it help or hinder the unification of the identity.

Kim Eley (14:39):

Ah, gotcha.

John Voris  (14:42):

So when I was out in sales and they said, “no, no, no.” First thing that happened was and they, they paid you in, in sales courses is you have to identify with what you're selling. You have to believe in what you're selling. many times they'll even—carlots will have the a new member buy a car, a rent a car, one of their cars. ‘Cause they have to be a believer. And sometimes sales kits, you have to be a believer. So when I have something I can identify with, this is me, okay?

So when I go out in the world and I am really trying to do something good and someone is saying “no,” they're saying, “I'm not good. I'm not, I'm bad. I'm not worth—”

Kim Eley (15:35):

They're rejecting you. Not just the product. You feel it, it is you they are rejecting.

John Voris  (15:41):

When you identify, this is very important. when you identify with the object, now a lot of people do—

Kim Eley (15:47):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>

John Voris  (15:47):

When you identify with the person. So if a good friend of yours didn't invite you to a party, you'd be hurt. You'd feel rejected. Yeah. That's because you identify with that person.

Kim Eley (15:59):

Gotcha.

John Voris  (16:00):

So the first fault in, for example, that I learned in sales was the idea that when you identify with what you're selling, then when they say “no” they're saying “no” to you. 

Some people can sell and not be, not identify with the object. But that's for very different reasons and, and nothing I can get into right now. But most people who go door to door sales they identify with what they're doing and they want to be avoid being ashamed of what they're doing. And so the way this works is I always, I always say that I think of a river and I say there's one bank called guilt. And one bank is called shame. And you're the one going down the middle.

Kim Eley (16:47):

<Laugh>.

John Voris  (16:49):

So when you do something that is counter to that unification of your identity you feel do guilty when you are being someone who's outside of your normal identity, then you'll feel ashamed. 

So for example, if I went into your, your office there and stole $10 out of your purse then I would feel guilty for doing that. And I'd walk out feeling ashamed, because now I'm a thief.

Kim Eley (17:25):

Ah. And, and that's counter to your identification of “John is a good guy.”

John Voris  (17:31):

Right. So the guilt and the shame are the barriers of this river that keep us in the center. Now, when someone says “no” and rejects what we're, what we're doing, who we're with or who we're being, then what happens is that triggers both the shame and the guilt.

Kim Eley (17:53):

Wow.

John Voris  (17:55):

And that's what rejection is, is when they're both triggered. I feel ashamed for I'm out there saying something.

John Voris  (18:02):

Or maybe not, maybe I'm in a group of people and I say something that is really out of character for me, and I walk away and I feel ashamed for what I said or guilty for what I did or I said to this other person. Because it's not who I am.

Kim Eley (18:19):

And so therefore, because the, the guilt and the shame of both been triggered you, do you self-reject or do you feel rejected by the group? 

John Voris  (18:29):

I feel rejected by somebody else. 

Kim Eley (18:30):

Okay.

John Voris  (18:31):

I'm not, I don't reject myself. Right. But rather, I feel because the idea of rejection is also the social component. 

So I can feel shame and guilt alone.

Kim Eley (18:45):

Gotcha.

John Voris  (18:47):

But rejection has to be done by someone else.

Kim Eley (18:50):

Rejection is done by someone else. But you, you can experience the guilt or shame, like, “dang it, why did I say that?” Like, you're kicking yourself afterwards. 

But it's, that's not the rejection. The guilt and shame are related to the rejection because say you say something off color at a party. And you feel guilty and ashamed about it, but then the group is who rejects you and says, “oh my gosh, did you hear what John said?”

John Voris  (19:21):

Right.

Kim Eley (19:21):

Is that correct? Okay. Yeah.

John Voris  (19:24):

But it, the, the idea is the rejection is a sentiment that is out there in the world.

Kim Eley (19:30):

Right.

John Voris  (19:31):

But it has to trigger something in me, which is my capacity for shame and guilt.

Kim Eley (19:36):

Gotcha. Gotcha, gotcha.

John Voris  (19:39):

So now, now how do you overcome that?

Kim Eley (19:42):

Hmm. Good question.

John Voris  (19:44):

I had to do that.

Kim Eley (19:45):

Yeah. Yeah.

John Voris  (19:46):

So for our listeners who don't know me and I haven't read—listened—to the first podcast. I sold, tried to sell seven times and got fired, and quit got fired four times and quit three times. So, I mean, I had to, eventually I found myself in sales again, and I had to resolve this problem or rejection. The way I did this.

Kim Eley (20:14):

Wait a second. Hmm. It's almost time for us to take a break. Right. And this would be a fabulous topic to come into after our break. So we're going to  take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to  find out John, how you overcame rejection. 

**Break**

All right. Hi. Welcome back to Authentic Living Podcast for a Better Life with Kim Eley and John Voris. And John, before we went to break, we were talking about rejection, and you were just about to share with us how you overcame rejection.

John Voris  (20:51):

Oh, yes. I had to, I had to do that. And I had taken courses on overcoming rejection, but they're always the same. It was—it's not about you, it's about the product you're selling or it's not it, it just don't take it personal or maybe their problem et cetera. And nothing ever worked.

Kim Eley (21:15):

Hmm.

John Voris  (21:16):

So by dismissing the five levels from Maslow, but also reading on to see that what's really going on is we're always in the state of self-organizing our identity and we have these feelings and emotions that are there to keep us guided so that we, we can stay within the parameters of who we are.

Kim Eley (21:38):

Mm-Hmm.

John Voris  (21:38):

Then, then that's how I came up with the guilt and the shame in the river. But now the question is: how do I overcome it?

Kim Eley (21:45):

Right.

John Voris  (21:46):

So, and, and, and many people are going to [reject] this, but I really believe in anger.

Kim Eley (21:55):

Ooh. That is controversial

John Voris  (21:57):

Controlled anger now. Notice that there's no courses on how to control your joy.

Kim Eley (22:07):

<Laugh>.

John Voris  (22:10):

Okay. How did, how to diminish your happiness?

Kim Eley (22:15):

<Laugh>,

John Voris  (22:15):

There is an course on that. Right? 

John Voris  (22:18):

There is a course on anger. Some people can—I'm talking about normal anger, normal frustration.

Kim Eley (22:23):

Right, right. 

John Voris  (22:24):

Not something psychosomatic.

Kim Eley (22:27):

Right. 

John Voris  (22:28):

When you're angry, what happens is you are right!

Kim Eley (22:33):

<Laugh>.

John Voris  (22:36):

Okay.

Kim Eley (22:37):

Okay. 

John Voris  (22:37):

You are justified.

Kim Eley (22:40):

Mm. Okay.

John Voris  (22:41):

And no one can stop you.

Kim Eley (22:44):

Mm.

John Voris  (22:45):

But mostly you're right. Being right is the glue that holds you together.

Kim Eley (22:54):

Hmm.

John Voris  (22:54):

Think about that.

Kim Eley (22:56):

Okay.

John Voris  (22:56):

Now you can be, now we often admit we're wrong.

Kim Eley (22:59):

Right.

John Voris  (23:00):

But we want to be right about it.

Kim Eley (23:03):

<Laugh>, What does that mean, <laugh>? 

John Voris  (23:08):

It's like, you know, “I-I have to I, I'm sorry. I gave you the wrong date about something.”

Kim Eley (23:16):

Okay. 

John Voris  (23:18):

“No, I really shouldn't have done that. I should have listened. And I know that.” And so, so I'm, I'm just, I'm justifying and I'm still coming up with excuses and, but, but you know, I'm saying, “well, you know yeah, I did make a mistake. It's fine.” But when you actually are confronted with a reality that is countered to who you are.

John Voris  (23:39):

Then you have an identity crisis.

Kim Eley (23:42):

Mm.

John Voris  (23:43):

And a lot of people know what that is. That's very different.

Kim Eley (23:47):

So, question for you talking about when, when you're an, you are experiencing anger, you are right. Is that righteous anger, as such? Does, does that mean I am angry because I know 100% that this what you did was wrong and I don't like it?

John Voris  (24:09):

I like that. Excellent.

Kim Eley (24:11):

<Laugh>.

John Voris  (24:15):

Excellent. So what I did, what I did is because [my] theme is wisdom. what I did is sit in the car and I would say to myself, “I'm going to  go out there in the world. And I want to, I'm going to find out those people who want to know the truth. The people who don't know the truth, I couldn't care less, but I'm going to  tell 'em what the truth is because they don't know they are truly ignorant of the truth.” 

And I would just have this mantra in my head.

John Voris  (24:42):

And I, and I'd also, in the beginning, I didn't have to do this later, but in the beginning [I would] bring up the anger. Bring up, last time I was angry at someone so I could feel it in my body. Ooh.

Kim Eley (24:53):

Okay. 

So quick. So in, in case somebody is not familiar with the wisdom life theme, I just want to make sure that we're clear. So as somebody who your life theme, wisdom, it's important to you to know how things work and to know the truth. Is that correct? 

So if somebody were to reject you, you were essentially saying, “oh, you don't want to know the truth.” Am I right? Exactly. 

Okay. Exactly. Just wanted to make sure that was clear. Okay, cool. Cool.

John Voris  (25:28):

So if you were going out in the world and someone turn you down, whatever you're selling, so that you could just say, “oh,” so you don't care.

Kim Eley (25:38):

Because I'm a love theme and I'm all about caring, so I'd be like, “you uncaring fool!”

John Voris  (25:43):

Exactly. <Laugh>, thank you.

Kim Eley (25:45):

Thank you.

John Voris  (25:46):

That's exactly right. So in that moment, you're going to have all the confidence in the world; no one can touch you. It's going to be like a huge wall, and you're going to  be right about it. And you're going to  go to, and you're going to say, “well I don't want to deal with you,” and you'll just go to the next door.

Kim Eley (26:03):

And so the rejection then doesn't sting as much.

John Voris  (26:09):

It doesn't occur.

Kim Eley (26:10):

It doesn't occur. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it.

John Voris  (26:12):

What's the difference? See, I have taken courses I had taken sessions on, on overcoming rejection, and it has, it didn't do anything except disguise it and give it another word or name or whatever you have to live. And so it never did any good. 

But see, human beings are given all the tools they need to combat control and many emotions when they're unneeded. And so what I had to do is get rid of this rejection idea. So he, getting back to this, if, if someone invites, doesn't invite, invite you to a party, but you don't know who they are, you don't feel rejected. There's a lot of people who know you, and you're not going to feel rejected because you're not going to  identify with them. So what's happening is I'm identifying with the idea of knowing and what you know.

Kim Eley (27:07):

Ah, okay.

John Voris  (27:09):

So I'm here to teach you.

Kim Eley (27:11):

Mm-Hmm.

John Voris  (27:11):

And I have an object to do it, but it's a catalyst. That's all. 

Kim Eley (27:16):

Right.

John Voris  (27:16):

I'm going to  teach you. So in your case, you might, you might say,” I'm going to teach you compassion, and this is what I have.” So if you focus not on the object, but the, but the meaning of it. And because this is what you're actually selling anyway. It—you can do this in everyday life. Everyday life is the same thing. You are selling ideas.

Kim Eley (27:39):

<Affirmative>

John Voris  (27:40):

And try to convince them. And you want to avoid rejection or negative attitudes from other people. All you have to do is think to yourself of—if you know your authentic identity, especially, it would be great. But to think of—what do you really stand for?

Kim Eley (28:00):

Hmm.

John Voris  (28:00):

And, and, and act as if someone is abusing that and get that anger going a little bit, not a lot.

Kim Eley (28:09):

<Affirmative> mm-hmm.

John Voris  (28:09):

And then see your next—could be a customer, could be a husband, it could be a wife, it could be a friend, it could be an—it doesn't matter. You're not going to feel their rejection because your sense of empowerment would be great. Your sense of righteousness would overcome it.

Kim Eley (28:25):

Got it. 

John Voris  (28:26):

But now, keep in mind, just want to be very clear, I had to keep this conscious when I first started, but within a week I didn't have to think about it anymore. Just it showed up.

Kim Eley (28:34):

Ah, interesting. So, question, because this is about sales, but rejection is not just a part of sales. Rejection, a part of everyday life. <Laugh> 

John Voris  (28:48):

This is, this is about everyday living. Right. And so, but I wanted to explain my source—

Kim Eley (28:55):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> Oh yeah.

John Voris  (28:56):

—about this so that you can understand what was going on. And that's a very good test center is, is selling. Cause then it doesn't matter what I do, I'm not going to  feel the rejection if I keep this in mind. It's my defense.

I'm not—Absolutely. It's not going to occur. In fact, I've given sales courses and never, ever touched on I rejection at all. Never had to.

Kim Eley (29:24):

So what are the, the errors, what are the, the mistakes that, that we are taught as, as part of our—I'm going to say day-to-day life in America? What, what are some of the mistakes?

John Voris  (29:39):

Well there's many but when comes to many, many—but when it comes to rejection, when it comes to the anger and they want you to get rid of it. 

Kim Eley (29:55):

No anger.

John Voris  (29:56):

I've had people, I said, you know, in my questionnaire, I'd say, “describe the last time you were angry.” “Oh, I don't get angry. I just get frustrated.” “Well, tell me the last time you get frustrated.” You know and I, I finally get it out of 'em. Cause everybody gets angry once in a while. But on a social level, you're not supposed to be angry on a social level. You're not supposed to judge. And if you don't, you're, you're not going to live very long. You're not supposed to have a bias, but that means you have an empty head. Okay?

Kim Eley (30:26):

Right. <Laugh>.

John Voris  (30:27):

So these are things we're taught, that is just ridiculous. And so, but when it comes to this idea of, of anger is you have to get rid of it. And know anger is there to tell you that you are being trespassed, or an idea that you hold dearly is being trespassed, and you are defending that. You're defending a commitment. you're defending an idea every time. Just think of every time you've been angry. And it's always because someone is at risk of countering your main motivation in life.

Kim Eley (31:09):

Right.

John Voris  (31:10):

So if someone's being cruel to an animal, what happened?

Kim Eley (31:13):

Right. Ugh.

John Voris  (31:14):

You get angry.

Kim Eley (31:15):

Extremely. Yeah. Yeah.

John Voris  (31:19):

No, I wouldn't get upset, but I wouldn't get as angry as you are.

Kim Eley (31:21):

Right. Because yeah, since I'm a love life theme. Yeah. So we were talking about before you had mentioned specifically the words controlled anger. So I'm thinking it's okay for us to have controlled anger. It's not realistic for us to have no anger.

John Voris  (31:42):

Right.

Kim Eley (31:43):

Okay. But you're not arguing for uncontrolled anger, like, ah, go off about everything. 

John Voris  (31:49):

No, not, not at all. In fact, what's happening is I'm taking an anger from the past—

Kim Eley (31:53):

Mm. 

John Voris  (31:54):

—and controlling it into the present.

Kim Eley (31:58):

Interesting. Okay. What, tell, explain what the anger from the past is and bring it into the present. What is that? 

John Voris  (32:06):

Okay, so, and also at the same time, I'll show you the distinction between, between feelings and emotions.

Kim Eley (32:12):

Awesome. 

John Voris  (32:13):

So my daughter was, I think two years old and she's crawling on the floor, but she has a paper clip in her hand. And she's going straight to a plug in the wall. So, so I said,” Amanda, you know, what are you doing?” And she looks at me like, “don't bother me. I'm having fun,” <laugh>. And so she keeps on crawling forward, “Amanda, stop.” And she looks at me, she's angry now. “Now what are you yelling at me for?” So then she reaches her hand up to, she's about to put, put it into the socket. And I go up there and I slap her, just slap I two fingers. Okay? 

Kim Eley (32:50):

<Affirmative> 

John Voris  (32:50):

Slap her hand up in there. She's crying and everything. “As I told you, you don't do that.” So, so I was angry because she wasn't listening to me.

Kim Eley (32:58):

Right.

John Voris  (32:59):

And what's—the listening to me is not the issue. The issue is I was trying to save her from harm. So what's happening is my love for her is the feeling.

Kim Eley (33:12):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

John Voris  (33:13):

My anger is the emotion.

Kim Eley (33:16):

Ah,

John Voris  (33:16):

Generated by the feeling. And that's what made me slap her hand with my fingers.

Kim Eley (33:23):

Gotcha.

John Voris  (33:25):

You always—feelings are judgments.

Kim Eley (33:28):

Right. 

John Voris  (33:29):

That’s another issue that is really distorted in this country.

Kim Eley (33:32):

Yeah. Yeah.

John Voris  (33:33):

Even [Carl] June said it, Jung said, “what if I feel cold? I'm judging that I'm cold, aren't I?”

Kim Eley (33:40):

Yes.

John Voris  (33:41):

Okay. “I feel hot, I feel whatever.” So you feel that you're making a judgment. In fact in psychology feelings are mostly overlooked. because unless, unless they're described as accumulated emotions, feelings are triggered by emotions.

Kim Eley (34:02):

Mm-Hmm.

John Voris  (34:03):

Well, they are too. But on the other hand, how you feel about something first can also designate how the emotion you're going to  have about it.

Kim Eley (34:12):

That makes sense. I've often heard the <laugh>, the people you love the most are the ones who will drive you crazy first.

John Voris  (34:22):

There you go.

Kim Eley (34:23):

And I'm thinking based on what you're saying, it's because you have the feeling of love, but then your emotion is you're trying to, like, let's say my husband does something that annoys me. Shocking! 

Like, like, okay, he doesn't really do this, but let's, let's say hypothetically he doesn't throw his clothes into the clothes hamper.

John Voris  (34:48):

Well, I'm guilty of that one!

Kim Eley (34:50):

<Laugh>. And so I'm—I love him madly. So I, I don't want to get mad at him. I'm not, I'm not like, “Hey, let's get angry.” But, but the emotion I have is love. But also I care about him not leaving his clothes all over the place. So, so the emotion is anger, like, “what, aren't you a grown man? Can't you manage to put your clothes into the hamper?” Is that an example of it?

John Voris  (35:18):

That's an example. But also you're missing, that's a, that's a male characteristic.

Kim Eley (35:27):

Okay. Maybe not the best example to use. I'm trying to think of something else. <Laugh>.

John Voris  (35:34):

How you have a loaf of bread. And guys, we'll take, take a couple of slices out and roll it up. That's a male characteristic.

Kim Eley (35:41):

Yeah, it is. Don't get me started, John. We can have a whole list. No, I'm just kidding. But <laugh>. But, but because you have the feeling like you were talking about with your daughter and the paper clip, it wasn't, “Hey, I just, I I feel angry at her.” You love her. Right? You were just like, “oh my God, she's going to  hurt herself and because I love her, I need to get upset and create a reaction.”

John Voris  (36:08):

I need to be in action.

Kim Eley (36:09):

Yeah. Gotcha. Okay.

John Voris  (36:11):

So now I could take that moment when she wasn't paying attention to me and I'm sitting in a car, right. In a different city, and I'm sitting here thinking about that moment, and I could picture that and how angry I got. And so now, ah, then I just feel that and okay, so now I transferred this to, I want to present a product to someone and or an idea or anything. And so when I do, I want to know, do they really want to know the truth? Do they really want to know what's going on? If not, if they want to stay ignorant, I don't care. I don't care for the ignorant, I don't care. And so that is actually in the back of my mind when I first started, then after a while it was, “I'm looking for smart people.”

Kim Eley (36:59):

There we go. So the—so that's what you were talking about with taking that anger from the past and bringing it to the present day is you can, I'm going to call it channel that anger or, or use that feeling, that emotion that you had with your daughter and say because for her you care because you're like, “I love her.” And so I care that she knows that she learns the truth. You don't do that but with other people, if they're like, “nah, I, I I'm not interested in what you're, you've to share.” You're like, “Hmm, you're not my people. You know, you're not, you're not truth seekers. <Laugh>.” 

John Voris  (37:43):

Now, here, here you go. Now, now, now, maybe and this is, this is on a very, very low scale of anger that I have. But and some people can really be very destructive in their anger, and I understand that. But in that case, would it be make any sense for me to take a course on eliminating or adjusting my anger?

Kim Eley (38:08):

No, because you would still feel the same. 

John Voris  (38:12):

Right. But, but no, it had a function. What you're doing is you're, you're denying the function of what that anger did.

Kim Eley (38:17):

Oh, I see. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha. 

John Voris  (38:20):

So that's why I have talked to many people that went to anger management courses, and they, most of 'em say they don't work. They've had articles on it, they don't work. Why? Because anger is natural. Anger is a defensive mechanism that we all have. Don't deny it, use it. Same. “Why am I angry?” Okay. And then “why do I feel that way? And then why do I feel that way?” And, and kind of reduce it down to a, a sense of what it might be. And then take the next time you're angry, do the same thing, and you're going to  have a pattern rapidly

Kim Eley (38:54):

Mm-Hmm.

John Voris  (38:55):

What I get angry when, and there's certain circumstances that show now, how do those certain circumstances show up? So in, in, in Authentic Systems it's about it's always someone doesn't and love quadrant is somebody's not caring and justice is not fai and in the, and the power quadrant someone's being weak. Forcing someone else to be weak.

Kim Eley (39:24):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

John Voris  (39:26):

Okay. And so you'll always find the anger tethered to one of those four.

Kim Eley (39:33):

So that's so fascinating. The anger really is a tool for understanding who you really are. It's, it's keeping—

John Voris  (39:41):

—together

Kim Eley (39:41):

—it's to be, maybe embraced is a strong word, but understood. Not to be rejected. <Laugh> not to be rejected. Get it? <Laugh>. There you go. Sorry, that was unintentional. 

But, but yeah, it really seems like anger is again, still to be controlled because nobody wants uncontrolled anger. But just to understand like, “dang, that ticks me off.” It's like, have that awareness, take a beat and go, “oh, why, why does that make me angry?” And that will teach you something about yourself.

John Voris  (40:17):

That's right. And then I've had people who were in sales that were love people and they had a real problem with rejection. And so then I said, “well, what makes you angry? And, and what makes me angry is—” one of the words they use is, is take advantage of other people.

Kim Eley (40:35):

Mm.

John Voris  (40:36):

So “what gets me angry is these companies are taking advantage of many people. And I want, I like to combat that. Cause I'm, I'm caring for this person standing in front of me, and I need for them to understand that. And if they can't understand that, I want nothing to do with them.”

Kim Eley (40:54):

Right. Right. It's like it reminds me of this story of somebody—do you remember hearing about the—it was spam emails and people would write emails and say, “hi, I'm a prince in Nigeria and I just need for you to share with me, you know, $20,000 and then I will give you 20 million.” Right? 

Those things. And there was actually someone who kept sending money to these fraudsters! And people were getting really angry about it with them. Like, “how can you be so, you know, foolish, evil,”

John Voris  (41:38):

Evil, evil on their part, but foolish on the other.

Kim Eley (41:41):

Foolish on the other. And, and so, you know, of course they were angry at the, the fake, you know, the fraudsters. But really, they also were angry, like, “how can you keep doing this to yourself?” And eventually they had to come to the realization, like, kinda like, “you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. You know, you can tell somebody not to send money to a Nigerian prince <laugh>, so you can't stop it.” <Laugh>.

John Voris  (42:06):

Right.

Kim Eley (42:08):

So that kind of mindset, like, “oh, well, you know as we say in the, in the South, well, you know, bless your heart,” you know, I'm, I'm, I'm just done with you, you know1 <laugh>

John Voris  (42:17):

Well, you know, on, on that score it's just a lot of people are, when, when you're honest you assume everyone else's.

Kim Eley (42:26):

Yes. 

John Voris  (42:27):

When you're truthful, you assume everyone else is truthful. That's why people get stuck into situations like that.

Kim Eley (42:33):

Yeah.

John Voris  (42:34):

Getting back to the idea of a rejection and what it is and, and how to combat it. It's someone else is triggering your sense of shame and guilt and only because you're attached to what's being said or an object.

Kim Eley (42:53):

Right.

John Voris  (42:54):

So if you detach yourself from that object, you're not going to  have that feeling. And especially if you bring in anger into it, that's another shield.

Kim Eley (43:02):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yes.

John Voris  (43:03):

And because you'll be, you'll be very righteous in the moment.

Kim Eley (43:07):

Yes. 

John Voris  (43:07):

Someone can touch you when you're angry.

Kim Eley (43:09):

Right, right. So true.

John Voris  (43:12):

That's how I combated that. And also in, in business and in other relationships, et cetera.

Kim Eley (43:18):

Yeah. Oh my gosh, this has been so fascinating. But we have reached the end of our time, John.

John Voris  (43:25):

Oh, okay. All right.

Kim Eley (43:26):

I, I wish to reject that notion, but I have to accept the reality that it is our time. 

So John, thank you so much. So if somebody is like, “holy moly, I want to know more about this,” how do they get in touch with you?

John Voris  (43:41):

Well, one, you can email me at john@authentic-systems.com.

Kim Eley (43:47):

Excellent.

John Voris  (43:48):

And I believe I've got a site in construction. Yes. Right. John voris.com.

Kim Eley (43:54):

I believe so. Yes. Yes. 

John Voris  (43:56):

So either way, and I do answer the emails.

Kim Eley (43:59):

Excellent, excellent. And yeah. Well thank you so much. This has been another amazing episode, and thank you listeners for listening to us. And one thing I'm going to  do is make sure in our show notes that we include the name of that book by Maslow. So if somebody wants to learn more about that, we can do that.

John Voris  (44:18):

Oh, sure.

Kim Eley (44:19):

Awesome. Thank you so much, John.

John Voris  (44:22):

Bye-Bye.

Kim Eley (44:23):

Bye-Bye.